Locked Sand, Feedback on updates; others chime in if you like.

[Winter Revel]

Sand, first and foremost, thank you for all your hard work & time you invest into the server.
No one can fault you for all the content we've recieved even recently after the birth of your child(Congratulations again!).


Unfortunately... I can't help but become frustrated because although you're pushing out content, some of the content is incomplete. 
Being the First server to have the Essence of Finality, or the Mining & Smithing Rework, or Archeology are all fantastic feats. We all get a huge rush whenever you push out one of these updates. 
However, once the nuance fades, we see the glaring problems that come with missing content. Much of the problems aren't gamebreaking - but nuisances.

I'll give a few examples.

1. Essence of Finality - 
This update came out THE SAME DAY as Jagex released it. It was exciting. It was fun. It was exactly what our little baby needed for its Legacy combat.
However, you & I discussed how we thought it should work, and you coded it. We weren't completely off the ball... but now we can see that it doesn't have all its intended functionality.
We can't use all weapon subtypes with each of the weapons we should be able to. E.g. we should be able to use a Korasi Sword special attack with ANY melee weapon; or use SGB special attack with asc crossbows. This is because we didn't know just how it was going to work - so obviously you're not at fault here. But this could be changed now that we know jagex intended for it to actually be quite flexible - which is kind of out of character for them lol.

2. Invention - 
The way you've implemented invention into the game was extremely creative, and very fun. I'm glad you'd made up some of your own recipes for gizmos which we had to figure out for ourselves back when it was first released(I think most of them are just rs3 mixes now that ancient invention has been released). We love the custom interfaces, and the donation-invention-perk is fantastic. 
The new interface you made to create gizmos is outfuckingstanding. Jagex should've had you on their team for that one.  Components, possibilties, and selections in the same clean interface. BAMF coder. 
Sandly, (yeah i just did that) we are missing both tech trees which is causing us to miss out on some pretty great content such as the B.A.N.K Stander(which is gonna be my favorite, fuck whatever @hamderhans has to say bout me XD) Oldak's Coil, and use of quite a few rare components such as pestiferous components. 

3. Archeology - 
Going to cut this one down; Archeology is excellent, but missing content. Plain and Simple.

Recommendations for Sandstorm:

For large updates definitely go with Batch Updates like Jagex did when they released invention. It is truly an immense amount of content, and releasing it all at once would've caused more problems than it was worth. That said, it may have been better if you did the first Invention release, and then pushed out the rest of inventions content immediately after to avoid going back and forth. The same thing with Archeology mysteries/research, it would've been nice to have those pushed out some time after the main update.
I'm sure everyone knows, its usually more time efficient to focus on one task and complete it in its entirety, than work on multiple things at once when it comes to things that require intricate attention. 

Overall, I think you should let the community compile similar unfinished content pieces and present them in a way that you can hone in and fix/add things.
Maybe go Skill by skill for instance. 

Also, get some of your more trusted players back onto your Beta servers. I know some of us are complete noobs and have just gone on to fuck with Invention Gizmos instead of testing the content you need tested....(I'm not guilty of this. Nope. Not. Even. Slightly. Never. Fuck no. Stop looking at me.) but we definitely want to help, and since most of us can't code, and the rest of us are not allowed to help with coding.... This is one of the best ways for us to help.

To the Community:

This server has the potential to be here for a very very long time. I don't want us to be so short-sighted as to actually listen to people who are constantly begging for AoD, or Solak to be released oh-so-soon. Sure, you may be getting bored. Maybe some of the content is a bit stale for you because you've PvM'd 2,000 hours with no new boss released...
But for the health of the game we should be patient. There is a backlog of untouched content which greatly enhances the gameplay experience. 

If you're a regular mode player, chances are you have lost touch with what truly makes the game great. You skip over a ton of content. Yes. Most of it is skiller content. But runescape was never meant to be strictly about PvM, or PvP. Most content in the game is Skiller content. Let that sink in. Whenever we skip big pieces of skiller content, PvM is affected.

Case and Point: Ancient Invention Gizmos.
We've been all begging for Extreme Invention Potions haven't we? These were released September 2018. This is part of 120 herblore content. Why don't we have it? No priority for skilling updates.
We can't just pander to PvM updates for player count. Yes, it provides more immediate gratification, but then we also get a net-negative outcome. People thinking the game is buggy, unfinished, unplayable.

Perception is reality.

We shouldn't be asking Sand to push content that is unhealthy for the longevity of the game and its player base. We don't need new bosses right now. We need to fix what we already got.

Why my sense of Agency?:
I'm going to address my agency in the matter, just because some people have the "Just, who does he think he is???" line of thinking.

Recently, I had someone accuse me of being entitled simply because I'd donated a sum of money to the server.
No. I am not entitled. If I felt that I was entitled, I would've made demands of Sand, and been banned a long time ago for being a dumbass. 
What I am is invested. There is a large difference between being invested in something, and feeling entitled due to actions you've made. 

Being invested, means that I want to reap the benefits of the servers greater success.
Being entitled, means that I feel that I'm owed something from the server &/or Sandstorm.
I'm not a fucking idiot... in this particular regard  
Sandstorm could turn the server off today, cut his losses, cut everyone out of his life, go play with his kid, and start another server in a few years to do it all over again.
Ofcourse, I would be entitled to the void left behind.
But I would never get the returns on my investment. The return I'm looking for, is to see 1,000+ players all playing an RS3 legacy mode server because Jagex said FUCK Legacy mode players. FUCK anyone who disliked EoC. We're going to deny you any access to the story & world you partook in and helped to build via your INVESTMENT of TIME and MONEY.
You know where our entitlement went in December 2012? Right up our asses. So if you think my agency comes from a sense of entitlement, you're deluded. 

Conclusion:
As much as I love *new* content. I'd be happy reviewing everything we've got so far. 
This is the #1 server out for a reason. Its got a great coder, and a pretty good community of people. We've got the most decent staff team we've had in ages, and a very consistent group of players.
I believe if we want to keep climbing player count, we need to do the following things:
1. Revisit Old/Buggy/Incomplete content as a top priority.
2. Balance combat - until the next power creep update Jagex releases. Also stop requesting Sand to make updates that are out of line - e.g. asking for Buffs/Nerfs without doing ANY math or testing whatsoever. Sure, some things are apparent - but just don't assume Sand is going to take the time to do all the testing that actually requires full dedicated Teams on Jagex's staff to do. 
If you care about more than just your own damn self, please present yourself so I can call your ass up when its time to get Nitty Gritty. Big shout outs to people such as @Throniumclaw, @Fulltimewife , who have helped me test out some of Sands content in the past. There's a bunch of others, but I my brain can always pick those two out easily.
3. Fix community structure & ;;rules - Help fc is still a clusterfuck of conversations. Most of the time it's chill; sometimes it gets out of hand, and staff deals with it. Some players take things the wrong way. Just rename Help fc to - General. It doesn't need to be implied its for Help.
;;rules need to be updated seriously.
"Mike Tyson" is still being used to replace the N word, which is racist in and of itself. I don't know why staff has ignored me the last 10 times I've mentioned it.
Grey areas need to be minimal. Staff Discretion shouldn't be the first line of determination of whether or not someone is out of line. It should be apparent by matching ;;rules to a players behavior. It's not explicit enough. I'm sure staff has had internal discussion on it, but we've not seen any results.

That is all.

[hamderhans]

Did you tag me because you want feedback ?

[Winter Revel]

4 hours ago, hamderhans said:

Did you tag me because you want feedback ?

No cuz im memeing cuz you say all I do is bank stand. Which is true. 

[Fulltimewife]

I think the main issue about people only speaking out about PvM updates & never skiller updates, is to put it bluntly, nobody really cares enough to look skilling & what's needed, there's no hardcore skillers who are speedrunning for 200m in a skill or trying to minmax their efficiency when it comes to actually skilling because nobody really cares enough to do it.

But on the other hand, with PvM, you have players like myself who enjoy speedrunning content (namely elite dungeons) or theorycrafting how to get the most runs / hour with the least amount of supplies, or the greatest consistency or the riskiest strats for the biggest time saves, the interest for PvM vastly outweighs the interest for skilling, so the suggestions/feedback surrounding PvM dwarf those of skilling.

 

I do understand that skilling briefly is hand in hand with PvM, such as 120 Herblore, Anachronia, etc etc

 

There's just nobody vocal enough about these updates, or anyone who cares to look at how to make the updates worthwhile with actual numbers meaning that Sand has to check it all himself (for example he fixed Aftershock 2 nights ago after I presented it to him in FC that Aftershock ranks are useless & as1 could hit 1,500 whilst as3 was hitting a 103(which was a massive kick in the face for him to just casually mention it after I had tested each rank for hours trying to figure out how it worked, only to be told it's not like default rs3 despite not being mentioned anywhere) then again with Precise being, pitiful, but unsure if he fixed that yet or not. 

[Winter Revel]

10 minutes ago, Fulltimewife said:

I think the main issue about people only speaking out about PvM updates & never skiller updates, is to put it bluntly, nobody really cares enough to look skilling & what's needed, there's no hardcore skillers who are speedrunning for 200m in a skill or trying to minmax their efficiency when it comes to actually skilling because nobody really cares enough to do it.

But on the other hand, with PvM, you have players like myself who enjoy speedrunning content (namely elite dungeons) or theorycrafting how to get the most runs / hour with the least amount of supplies, or the greatest consistency or the riskiest strats for the biggest time saves, the interest for PvM vastly outweighs the interest for skilling, so the suggestions/feedback surrounding PvM dwarf those of skilling.

 

I do understand that skilling briefly is hand in hand with PvM, such as 120 Herblore, Anachronia, etc etc

 

There's just nobody vocal enough about these updates, or anyone who cares to look at how to make the updates worthwhile with actual numbers meaning that Sand has to check it all himself (for example he fixed Aftershock 2 nights ago after I presented it to him in FC that Aftershock ranks are useless & as1 could hit 1,500 whilst as3 was hitting a 103(which was a massive kick in the face for him to just casually mention it after I had tested each rank for hours trying to figure out how it worked, only to be told it's not like default rs3 despite not being mentioned anywhere) then again with Precise being, pitiful, but unsure if he fixed that yet or not. 

About your first para-
Very true. The thing about Velheim though, is that it feels like RS3 replacement. Other people probably feel the same way. Like you do not need to play RS3 to get the vibe & experience. Velheim just doesn't have quests XD
So I feel the skilling aspects are still very important, if naught else but to enhance PvM.

Second para -
Yeah there's definitely always going to be a heavy bias to PvM updates - especially on a RSPS. However, Tons of PvM gear and items is typically gained via skilling/achievement diarys/quests. Think of things like Darklight, Enhanced Excalibur(elite), Elite Seers Diaries for increased % bolt specials, 96 Herblore requirement for Overloads, etc. etc. List could go on for awhile. Ignoring this content just provides more shortcuts to endgame PvM that are not really necessary due to how players aren't typically just playing the game for a short burst of 1-3 months. People play for long periods of time, and also return for more. I believe for that reason, having skilling time gates is perfectly fine, and also healthy. Slows the rate of boss drop items entering the economy as well.

3rd para - 
Yup, it's kinda sad. Sand does have to do all his own balancing, and if people don't like it then he has to go back and mess with things. That said, sometimes he does just push out content so that it's accessible for everyone - and that can sometimes cause little nuisances like with Aftershock & Precise, because other people couldn't help him fully test everything out. Even when he has Beta Testers, it can be very time consuming to help him out. I remember when Archeology was being released, I only managed to get to like 70 archeology(classic mode) or so before he was already like - ok we're done, time to push this update out - and that was when Tomes dropped like crazy lmao. Archeology was in an excellent state overall when he released it considering he only had like 2 people test any of it. The man puts in W O R K. 

Oh and about precise, I think he woulda said something about it. I remember when you both were conversatin' he said he was busy at the time.

[Mean]

@Winter RevelI agree, in essence, with what you're saying -- fixing incomplete content should be a priority. I don't know what the process for vetting/implementing suggestions is here, but there's a LOT of great things in the forums outside of the occasional "New boss please" -- We all know from retail that infatuation with a new boss lasts about a week. I think there's more to be done outside of bosses that would have a greater effect on player retention. Balancing combat would help multiple facets of the gameplay here.

 

I do also think that on some type of interval, if available, a new piece of content should be added even if its only to draw in that 'new content' crowd momentarily.

 

I agree with ;;rules needing a review, disagree with renaming the FC, I'd rather it be implied as 'help' chat, which encourages the many players who love to answer questions to help while discouraging people from the usual "this isn't a help chat, go use wiki" you see on other servers. I've also seen players encouraging new members to ask their questions -- the point being, the title of the chat sets a tone. I don't find the disruptive bits to be very frequent. --- Maybe "General/Help".

 

 

1 hour ago, Fulltimewife said:

I think the main issue about people only speaking out about PvM updates & never skiller updates, is to put it bluntly, nobody really cares enough to look skilling & what's needed, there's no hardcore skillers who are speedrunning for 200m in a skill or trying to minmax their efficiency when it comes to actually skilling because nobody really cares enough to do it.

This is demonstrably false -- The majority of suggestions in our forum, at least currently, are either skilling related or QOL, PVM content suggestions are few. Your comment about skilling efficiency actually gives me some ideas -- but TL;DR, the things that increase efficiency often don't exist here or high level skilling content simply doesn't exist. (Arc, Crystal Trees, etc.)

Anyway, you not personally interacting with the skiller community here doesn't mean we aren't around -- in fact, the prestige system is essentially a skiller system, so we should probably offer a great experience around a mechanic that is a core offering of the gameplay by shoring up the skiller experience a bit.

 

 

 

 

[Fulltimewife]

1 hour ago, Mean said:

@Winter RevelI agree, in essence, with what you're saying -- fixing incomplete content should be a priority. I don't know what the process for vetting/implementing suggestions is here, but there's a LOT of great things in the forums outside of the occasional "New boss please" -- We all know from retail that infatuation with a new boss lasts about a week. I think there's more to be done outside of bosses that would have a greater effect on player retention. Balancing combat would help multiple facets of the gameplay here.

 

I do also think that on some type of interval, if available, a new piece of content should be added even if its only to draw in that 'new content' crowd momentarily.

 

I agree with ;;rules needing a review, disagree with renaming the FC, I'd rather it be implied as 'help' chat, which encourages the many players who love to answer questions to help while discouraging people from the usual "this isn't a help chat, go use wiki" you see on other servers. I've also seen players encouraging new members to ask their questions -- the point being, the title of the chat sets a tone. I don't find the disruptive bits to be very frequent. --- Maybe "General/Help".

 

 

This is demonstrably false -- The majority of suggestions in our forum, at least currently, are either skilling related or QOL, PVM content suggestions are few. Your comment about skilling efficiency actually gives me some ideas -- but TL;DR, the things that increase efficiency often don't exist here or high level skilling content simply doesn't exist. (Arc, Crystal Trees, etc.)

Anyway, you not personally interacting with the skiller community here doesn't mean we aren't around -- in fact, the prestige system is essentially a skiller system, so we should probably offer a great experience around a mechanic that is a core offering of the gameplay by shoring up the skiller experience a bit.

 

 

 

 

Do you have a link for the non-herblore/farming suggestion for Skilling?