Locked The state of the Velheim economy

[ryandunn]

I've been probably too vocal of my opinions on the current state of the Velheim economy in game; I've had warnings, arguments, and conversations with a lot of members of the server. In doing so, I have made a lot of people angry with myself personally; and I can understand where that comes from. I want to state off the top that I love playing this game, I love what our staff does for the server, and I love sands passion in doing his updates so frequently, and by himself. This server is truly something special, and I will always stand by that. However, I think many of the non-ironman players and even the staff can agree that the state of the games economy is at the very least annoying, if not slightly concerning. I've been in trouble for saying all these different things that others have also said on the forums that they can blame the state of the economy on, but instead lets look for a solution. 

The real problem with the economy in my eyes, is that it is stagnant. People have money, they are getting drops, people are PVMing, but there is a lack of trading fundamentally for almost all items. This leads to very sought after items (i.e. HSR) skyrocketing in price, while a majority of items have crashed dramatically. 

How can we fix stagnancy? 

One option which will get shot down, and I can understand sand doesn't want it on his server and that is his decision; is gambling and or staking. If coded to do so, this can all be automated to assure no scamming between players.

Another option to consider is adjusting the auto-sell prices for a lot of items in the grand exchange. This doesn't need to be dramatic, but should have a much more solid idea of what items are worth, and if set correctly can assure that someone doing high tier, or even mid tier PVM makes a reasonable amount of GP from their hard work and if set correctly should also leave enough room for the average price to be more dictated than supply and demand to avoid adding too much GP into the game.

Another option would be to make all high tier gear degradable, with no option or work around to make all gear repairable. If the items are out of the game people will have to spend the money they make to buy more gear once again. I personally am not a fan of this option but just throwing it out there.

Another thing that can help with stagnancy in theory is adding death cost. Make this scale with gear cost, and make it punishing, as there is no real loss when dying currently. If you cant afford in cash to retrieve your items, you lose the ones you chose to. 

Another option could be a for-profit lending system. if you cant sell the higher end gear, loan it to poorer players for a fee so that the item isn't sitting in the grand exchange for weeks, or in your bank never to be used again.

As for my ideas, this is what I have come up with thus far, and would like if anyone else with ideas contributed to this post. 

The last thing I want is for this game to "die" (with the massive iron man community the game has this wont ever truly happen, but you get the idea) because I love to play it. I always encourage new players to buy bonds with their money in real life for a nice jump start on the game. I want this game to grow to even larger heights, and I want to be here when it reaches those heights. 

Open a discussion

thoughts, opinions, ideas of your own, want to tell me im a butthead for making this post? talk about it in the comments. start a conversation. keep it civil, please.

[Yggdrasil]

I think, at the very least, it's good to start a discussion to have an overview on the state of the economy.

My recommendation would be this: encourage player to player trading - don't hoard items, sell!

[NubonmyPC]

i think currently the biggest problem is this

3 minutes ago, Yggdrasil said:

My recommendation would be this: encourage player to player trading - don't hoard items, sell!

 

people need to stop hoarding items like their life depends on it. Good initiative to make a post like this instead of boldy saying "dead eco" or whatever. Great opening for a civil discussion.

 

^ CIVIL please. no need to go at each others necks over a simple conversation.

[ryandunn]

5 minutes ago, Yggdrasil said:

I think, at the very least, it's good to start a discussion to have an overview on the state of the economy.

My recommendation would be this: encourage player to player trading - don't hoard items, sell!

and buy them! thanks for the reply Ygg, much appreciation for all that you do for the community.

[ryandunn]

1 minute ago, NubonmyPC said:

i think currently the biggest problem is this

 

people need to stop hoarding items like their life depends on it. Good initiative to make a post like this instead of boldy saying "dead eco" or whatever. Great opening for a civil discussion.

 

^ CIVIL please. no need to go at each others necks over a simple conversation.

thank you as well nub for all you do for our community. 

[Mickey]

agreed this has to be discussed, I can't really think of much that hasn't been suggested here already but you could do something to make the well a bit more beefy. Higher price more and varied rewards? allow Items to be donated to it perhaps? suppose it won't salve selfishness though

[ryandunn]

Just now, Mickey said:

agreed this has to be discussed, I can't really think of much that hasn't been suggested here already but you could do something to make the well a bit more beefy. Higher price more and varied rewards? allow Items to be donated to it perhaps? suppose it won't salve selfishness though

well taking items would be great if it went off of GE auto sell value and we adjusted auto sell values accordingly to how I stated above! thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it a lot.

[Happy L]

52 minutes ago, ryandunn said:

I've been probably too vocal of my opinions on the current state of the Velheim economy in game; I've had warnings, arguments, and conversations with a lot of members of the server. In doing so, I have made a lot of people angry with myself personally; and I can understand where that comes from. I want to state off the top that I love playing this game, I love what our staff does for the server, and I love sands passion in doing his updates so frequently, and by himself. This server is truly something special, and I will always stand by that. However, I think many of the non-ironman players and even the staff can agree that the state of the games economy is at the very least annoying, if not slightly concerning. I've been in trouble for saying all these different things that others have also said on the forums that they can blame the state of the economy on, but instead lets look for a solution. 

The real problem with the economy in my eyes, is that it is stagnant. People have money, they are getting drops, people are PVMing, but there is a lack of trading fundamentally for almost all items. This leads to very sought after items (i.e. HSR) skyrocketing in price, while a majority of items have crashed dramatically. 

How can we fix stagnancy? 

One option which will get shot down, and I can understand sand doesn't want it on his server and that is his decision; is gambling and or staking. If coded to do so, this can all be automated to assure no scamming between players.

Another option to consider is adjusting the auto-sell prices for a lot of items in the grand exchange. This doesn't need to be dramatic, but should have a much more solid idea of what items are worth, and if set correctly can assure that someone doing high tier, or even mid tier PVM makes a reasonable amount of GP from their hard work and if set correctly should also leave enough room for the average price to be more dictated than supply and demand to avoid adding too much GP into the game.

Another option would be to make all high tier gear degradable, with no option or work around to make all gear repairable. If the items are out of the game people will have to spend the money they make to buy more gear once again. I personally am not a fan of this option but just throwing it out there.

Another thing that can help with stagnancy in theory is adding death cost. Make this scale with gear cost, and make it punishing, as there is no real loss when dying currently. If you cant afford in cash to retrieve your items, you lose the ones you chose to. 

Another option could be a for-profit lending system. if you cant sell the higher end gear, loan it to poorer players for a fee so that the item isn't sitting in the grand exchange for weeks, or in your bank never to be used again.

As for my ideas, this is what I have come up with thus far, and would like if anyone else with ideas contributed to this post. 

The last thing I want is for this game to "die" (with the massive iron man community the game has this wont ever truly happen, but you get the idea) because I love to play it. I always encourage new players to buy bonds with their money in real life for a nice jump start on the game. I want this game to grow to even larger heights, and I want to be here when it reaches those heights. 

Open a discussion

thoughts, opinions, ideas of your own, want to tell me im a butthead for making this post? talk about it in the comments. start a conversation. keep it civil, please.

As a non regular account, (Ironman) I will be speaking purely within the context of what I've seen, as I don't have much if at all any experience actually participating in the eco but i do have a few points. 

-I think that gambling is a bad idea, for multiple reasons.  I understand entirely how it could affect the economy and how it could really help things, but it could also encourage addictions from people, make people rage quit, and divide certain communities of players. - That being said, to expand on your idea for the ge thing.  What if we set fixed GE prices for *most* items in the GE, then when people sold those items, it gets added to a pool, which players could enter everyday/week/month?  Something like use raffle tickets?  Or maybe repurpose another item that isn't currently used for other things?  Such as Castle Wars (Bronze) and (Silver) tickets.  That way, it's a controlled gamble, that can't be abused or turned into an addiction.  As a person who has worked in places that sell gambling tickets/etc I can't stand to see people gamble away their banks, money, or time.  I know a lot of people that would donate lots of money and gamble it all away then quit.  And don't get me wrong, donations help the server.  They help Sandstorm.  But I feel the mental state and stability of the players is just so much more important.  That's just my opinion, and if anyone disagrees, absolutely feel free to say so. 

I feel at this point within the game, making armor degrade to dust automatically would be extreme, HOWEVER, perhaps we could introduce a faster degradation process.  I do think that would be a much better money sink than straight up having them destroyed all together.  (If i misunderstood what you were saying I apologize, bare with me.)  Another option would be on death, you lose 5-10% (or less) degradation on your armor as well?  I know there are certain items on RS3 that already do that. 

I think that removing death safety (Keeping your items) wouldn't be a bad idea at all to be entirely honest.  It would make it so that you must carry cash with you at all times when PvMing, which at this point, cash really isn't much worth keeping around.  (Due to the state of the economy)  And while I do actually LOVE not dropping my items on death, I do also feel it could help with stuff there too. 

 

At the end of the day, in order to fix this economy it's going to take work from more than one party.  One person absolutely cannot fix everything, no matter how much they end up selling.  I see players complaining (and I'm absolutely not naming names) that nobody will buy their items, but they have spent almost their whole gameplay also not buying items as well.  The highest tier players have to realize that the hard truth is that they also are a part of this issue, and they also have to contribute to the growth of the economy.  Start buying low level gears for invention materials, encourage others to do the same.  Start feeding your wealth back into the economy and the economy will feed it back. 

Another thing everyone needs to keep in mind, is that this is a large community, and it's going to take more than just 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day for this to change, it's a very slow process.  Something I tell people all the time when it comes to buying bonds, is that if you want those prices to go down, you MUST stop buying them.  The demand for those things is too high with the supply being so low.  Everybody needs to be apart of both buying and selling items for it to work, you can't own 1/15th of the economy and not sell any of your items and expect those same items to be low in price. 

I also feel some generosity might do a little good too, every few weeks xxrandom does drop parties and absolutely unloads so much into the economy, which allows other (newer) players to experience those items and sell them for what they feel is fair. 

Finally, I think it's time to take a step back from the RSPS ideology that everything will/must be faster/easier.  The cash flow is balanced much better than before (I feel at least) and it's easy to say you don't make a crap load of money anymore, but at a certain point you have to just accept that for what it is and build the economy over that.   Sell your items for what you feel is a realistic price for the time/effort you put into them.  (In my opinion) An SGB is not worth 1b.  It just isn't.  And if everyone else adopted that same opinion, and refused to buy them for that much, the price for it would go down, making it more accessible. 

All of what I'm saying could be entirely wrong, or exactly what we need to fix the eco, I don't know.  I'm not an expert, as i said in the beginning, this is coming entirely from the context of what i see.  You're absolutely allowed to disagree with me. 

[ryandunn]

3 minutes ago, Iron Agnes said:

As a non regular account, (Ironman) I will be speaking purely within the context of what I've seen, as I don't have much if at all any experience actually participating in the eco but i do have a few points. 

-I think that gambling is a bad idea, for multiple reasons.  I understand entirely how it could affect the economy and how it could really help things, but it could also encourage addictions from people, make people rage quit, and divide certain communities of players. - That being said, to expand on your idea for the ge thing.  What if we set fixed GE prices for *most* items in the GE, then when people sold those items, it gets added to a pool, which players could enter everyday/week/month?  Something like use raffle tickets?  Or maybe repurpose another item that isn't currently used for other things?  Such as Castle Wars (Bronze) and (Silver) tickets.  That way, it's a controlled gamble, that can't be abused or turned into an addiction.  As a person who has worked in places that sell gambling tickets/etc I can't stand to see people gamble away their banks, money, or time.  I know a lot of people that would donate lots of money and gamble it all away then quit.  And don't get me wrong, donations help the server.  They help Sandstorm.  But I feel the mental state and stability of the players is just so much more important.  That's just my opinion, and if anyone disagrees, absolutely feel free to say so. 

I feel at this point within the game, making armor degrade to dust automatically would be extreme, HOWEVER, perhaps we could introduce a faster degradation process.  I do think that would be a much better money sink than straight up having them destroyed all together.  (If i misunderstood what you were saying I apologize, bare with me.)  Another option would be on death, you lose 5-10% (or less) degradation on your armor as well?  I know there are certain items on RS3 that already do that. 

I think that removing death safety (Keeping your items) wouldn't be a bad idea at all to be entirely honest.  It would make it so that you must carry cash with you at all times when PvMing, which at this point, cash really isn't much worth keeping around.  (Due to the state of the economy)  And while I do actually LOVE not dropping my items on death, I do also feel it could help with stuff there too. 

 

At the end of the day, in order to fix this economy it's going to take work from more than one party.  One person absolutely cannot fix everything, no matter how much they end up selling.  I see players complaining (and I'm absolutely not naming names) that nobody will buy their items, but they have spent almost their whole gameplay also not buying items as well.  The highest tier players have to realize that the hard truth is that they also are a part of this issue, and they also have to contribute to the growth of the economy.  Start buying low level gears for invention materials, encourage others to do the same.  Start feeding your wealth back into the economy and the economy will feed it back. 

Another thing everyone needs to keep in mind, is that this is a large community, and it's going to take more than just 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day for this to change, it's a very slow process.  Something I tell people all the time when it comes to buying bonds, is that if you want those prices to go down, you MUST stop buying them.  The demand for those things is too high with the supply being so low.  Everybody needs to be apart of both buying and selling items for it to work, you can't own 1/15th of the economy and not sell any of your items and expect those same items to be low in price. 

I also feel some generosity might do a little good too, every few weeks xxrandom does drop parties and absolutely unloads so much into the economy, which allows other (newer) players to experience those items and sell them for what they feel is fair. 

Finally, I think it's time to take a step back from the RSPS ideology that everything will/must be faster/easier.  The cash flow is balanced much better than before (I feel at least) and it's easy to say you don't make a crap load of money anymore, but at a certain point you have to just accept that for what it is and build the economy over that.   Sell your items for what you feel is a realistic price for the time/effort you put into them.  (In my opinion) An SGB is not worth 1b.  It just isn't.  And if everyone else adopted that same opinion, and refused to buy them for that much, the price for it would go down, making it more accessible. 

All of what I'm saying could be entirely wrong, or exactly what we need to fix the eco, I don't know.  I'm not an expert, as i said in the beginning, this is coming entirely from the context of what i see.  You're absolutely allowed to disagree with me. 

all very good points, and im very thankful you took the time to write this all out. as for gambling, i completely see where youre coming from, i just know it makes an economy instantly more active. there is many drawbacks all to which you stated. the only real positives i see from it are an increase in donations for bonds to fuel gambling and the more active economy.

also as far as setting the ge prices differently it would just be really hard in deciding what an item is worth as a bottom dollar offer for one. its all so subjective and im not sure how it would be done, i just see it as a solution that could be easiest. dont let the ge auto sell price affect alch prices because it could shift the landscape of ironman accounts such as yourself. 

im not sure where to go from here, i just hope seeing more and more suggestions like this and discussions about the genuine problem that exists will help us all find a way to move the server in a better direction!

 

[NubonmyPC]

26 minutes ago, ryandunn said:

all very good points, and im very thankful you took the time to write this all out. as for gambling, i completely see where youre coming from, i just know it makes an economy instantly more active. there is many drawbacks all to which you stated. the only real positives i see from it are an increase in donations for bonds to fuel gambling and the more active economy.

I am pretty sure its safe to say that gambling will never be a part of Velheim. 
Not only cause the thought of feeding people's gambling addiction throughout a game is unhealthy and i dont think a video game would be the right spot to implement such things.

Besides the fact that it is unhealthy ,it gives some unwanted problems think of : rage quitting or people donating their NEEDED money for IRL needs.. Not even to mention the behind the scenes problems this could cause which makes it even worse.

There's just so many factors why gambling on any RSPS is a BAD move. 

Im gonna very bold here but : GAMBLING RUINS SERVERS

[ryandunn]

2 minutes ago, NubonmyPC said:

I am pretty sure its safe to say that gambling will never be a part of Velheim. 
Not only cause the thought of feeding people's gambling addiction throughout a game is unhealthy and i dont think a video game would be the right spot to implement such things.

Besides the fact that it is unhealthy ,it gives some unwanted problems think of : rage quitting or people donating their NEEDED money for IRL needs.. Not even to mention the behind the scenes problems this could cause which makes it even worse.

There's just so many factors why gambling on any RSPS is a BAD move. 

Im gonna very bold here but : GAMBLING RUINS SERVERS

all valid points! thats why i tried to add as many solutions as i could think of, i know sand has the same view and ultimately it is his server. thanks once again for your feedback nub <3

[Farris]

Just like to start off with a thank you for all the hard work and thought put into the server. I'm fairly new here but after playing quite a few RSPS this one has the kindest community and overall game balance in my opinion. As far as the economy goes, I really don't think it's all that bad. Prices for things seems fair, I like being able to buy all "common" skilling gear etc. The only thing I've noticed goes along with the hoarding. I find it hard to buy/sell certain items because it seems very extreme. What I mean by that is there's either a flood of said item or next to none, making prices volatile. 

My thoughts on the accelerated degradation is this; if an item degrades faster, that will make people want to not hoard their gear and sell it for profit to balance out the need for a replacement. In turn however, will drive price. Demand will go up which will make items cost more initially but could potentially make prices like a stock market and dump so that say I can sell my gear before the guy next to me. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It's very similar to the Tarkov market and economy which I really don't mind at all.

I have one suggestion that I've never seen or heard of in Runescape but what about scheduled bank wipes? You'd keep your perks and prestiges, it would only affect your bank. Maybe allow your coin pouch to stay so you at least have something to work with. This will make old players want to grind again, not just for levels. And give new players a fair chance at a competitive GE market. 

Second suggestion would be with the daily lottery, allow you to donate to it and also be able to buy tickets with gp. It's gambling in a sense but I don't think nearly as toxic.

[ryandunn]

13 minutes ago, Farris said:

Just like to start off with a thank you for all the hard work and thought put into the server. I'm fairly new here but after playing quite a few RSPS this one has the kindest community and overall game balance in my opinion. As far as the economy goes, I really don't think it's all that bad. Prices for things seems fair, I like being able to buy all "common" skilling gear etc. The only thing I've noticed goes along with the hoarding. I find it hard to buy/sell certain items because it seems very extreme. What I mean by that is there's either a flood of said item or next to none, making prices volatile. 

My thoughts on the accelerated degradation is this; if an item degrades faster, that will make people want to not hoard their gear and sell it for profit to balance out the need for a replacement. In turn however, will drive price. Demand will go up which will make items cost more initially but could potentially make prices like a stock market and dump so that say I can sell my gear before the guy next to me. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It's very similar to the Tarkov market and economy which I really don't mind at all.

I have one suggestion that I've never seen or heard of in Runescape but what about scheduled bank wipes? You'd keep your perks and prestiges, it would only affect your bank. Maybe allow your coin pouch to stay so you at least have something to work with. This will make old players want to grind again, not just for levels. And give new players a fair chance at a competitive GE market. 

Second suggestion would be with the daily lottery, allow you to donate to it and also be able to buy tickets with gp. It's gambling in a sense but I don't think nearly as toxic.

a daily lottery i could see helping a bit, its a good shout! honestly a lot of prices should be higher on end game content items, aside from a few items that are so incredibly rare (i.e. eldritch limbs + hsr) 

i think the best course of action might be the degradation, and punished degradation on death. dyed items could revert back to just the dye after reaching 0% so people who dyed items previously arent screwed out of the item + the dye. 

i also have no idea how hard any of this would be to code aside from a daily lottery i know would be pretty simple. really hope to get more reactions and discussion on here before sand weighs in. thank you for the input 

[Arcadiez]

I see new players asking to buy gear all the time. Eg gw1 sets. But not many people are selling.

HSR should be expensive since it is a rare drop and a good item.

Prices overal has gone up to what they were which is a good thing. Most items are around those prices they were before. (like 2 years ago).

Most RSPS servers only last a few months or a year at most, before they "reconstruct" or whatever excuse they come up with and reset their eco. This Server has been on for more than 3 years with no resets, that will indeed create certain players with more money than others.

Even with just 100m in the well, i barely see people contributing to it. If everyone have so much GP, how come no one put it in the well?

That said, im all for a death penalty(maybe even gravestones). Faster degrade. No coin repair for higher tier items; eg you have to use sirenic scales to repair, maybe even masterwork plate to repair, as well as an increase in drain rate. Possible to use lower tier items on the well for a chance of reciving an exclusive title/pet or other rewards.

 

 

"Another thing that can help with stagnancy in theory is adding death cost. Make this scale with gear cost, and make it punishing, as there is no real loss when dying currently. If you cant afford in cash to retrieve your items, you lose the ones you chose to. 

Another option could be a for-profit lending system. if you cant sell the higher end gear, loan it to poorer players for a fee so that the item isn't sitting in the grand exchange for weeks, or in your bank never to be used again"

[Sprout]

The combination of faster degrading, faster drain rate and repairing higher end items with scales/masterwork/tectonic or patches is too much, way to fast. Honestly couldn't think of anything more depressing than farming even more divine charges and adding the extras of remaking masterwork or farming out scales/energy just for the up keep of pvming, you must remember we live in a world where people think rune(s) upkeep for magic is expensive . Would start with 1 of them and revisit after a couple weeks feedback to avoid absolute carnage.

 

+1 to death costs, having to pay death to reclaim your items or returning to your grave to get them is a super idea.