Locked The state of the Velheim economy

[ryandunn]

1 hour ago, Arcadiez said:

I see new players asking to buy gear all the time. Eg gw1 sets. But not many people are selling.

HSR should be expensive since it is a rare drop and a good item.

Prices overal has gone up to what they were which is a good thing. Most items are around those prices they were before. (like 2 years ago).

Most RSPS servers only last a few months or a year at most, before they "reconstruct" or whatever excuse they come up with and reset their eco. This Server has been on for more than 3 years with no resets, that will indeed create certain players with more money than others.

Even with just 100m in the well, i barely see people contributing to it. If everyone have so much GP, how come no one put it in the well?

That said, im all for a death penalty(maybe even gravestones). Faster degrade. No coin repair for higher tier items; eg you have to use sirenic scales to repair, maybe even masterwork plate to repair, as well as an increase in drain rate. Possible to use lower tier items on the well for a chance of reciving an exclusive title/pet or other rewards.

 

 

"Another thing that can help with stagnancy in theory is adding death cost. Make this scale with gear cost, and make it punishing, as there is no real loss when dying currently. If you cant afford in cash to retrieve your items, you lose the ones you chose to. 

Another option could be a for-profit lending system. if you cant sell the higher end gear, loan it to poorer players for a fee so that the item isn't sitting in the grand exchange for weeks, or in your bank never to be used again"

totally agree, the HSR should be expensive, and i think that the faster degradation and death cost could be the best solution. thanks for the input arcadiez, means a lot <3

[ryandunn]

28 minutes ago, Sprout said:

The combination of faster degrading, faster drain rate and repairing higher end items with scales/masterwork/tectonic or patches is too much, way to fast. Honestly couldn't think of anything more depressing than farming even more divine charges and adding the extras of remaking masterwork or farming out scales/energy just for the up keep of pvming, you must remember we live in a world where people think rune(s) upkeep for magic is expensive . Would start with 1 of them and revisit after a couple weeks feedback to avoid absolute carnage.

 

+1 to death costs, having to pay death to reclaim your items or returning to your grave to get them is a super idea. 

 

i agree whatever does change should be done slowly, i dont want this to have a negative impact on the game overall. thank you for the input!

[Iron Tyrone]

To start; thank you for making a topic where you are being constructive, and open to the discussion of the topic.
TLDR at the end for people who don't want to read all this.

Firstly; Gambling.
Gambling is a disease. People on RuneScape who gamble go into real life debt to satiate their desires at the time.

Players will gamble/stake, lose all their stuff - and quit. 
Or; Players will gamble/stake, lose all their stuff - donate for bonds to sell, and repeat.

Secondly; Economy.
I think that there are a few issues which tends to decide the economy for us. New player should be progressing their gear but due to "low-tier" bosses being harder than "high-tier" bosses, that leaves it very difficult.

I'd like to quickly use GWD1 as an example.

GWD1 was previously, heavily abused for the gold-on-drop which was then nerfed in isolation, then also nerfed with the general GP nerf. This is fine, it was too profitable before for how easy it was and is now in a good place. What I find irritating about GWD1 is the difficulty - I can fully afk 2, even 3 of the GWD2 bosses with the right gear and setup, yet I can still have some difficulty with GWD1? The bosses hit hard, the minions hit hard - and that's with T90+ gear, so how is a newer player meant to deal with that? 

I think that lowered tiered bosses (KBD, Mole, GWD1 for examples) need to have balancing adjustments around them to make them either stronger, or weaker and then also balance the drops (both items, and gold). GWD1 drop rates can be lowered slightly, and make them slightly easier to do (whilst adding a Hard Modes to these bosses making the boss harder, and having higher drop rates). 

The way it is, in my opinion, it's hard to see a new player progress because the "low tier" bosses are either; 1. Not Profitable, or 2. Too Hard.

Thirdly; Death Costs & Degradation.
Death Costs; I like that you brought this up. I personally think that having no death costs - leaves no risks whatsoever to PVM. I'm all for the implementation, of course being balanced. I think if an end-game PVMer with the best gear possible dies it shouldn't be too much of a loss to dissuade them from using that gear in the future, but it should be just enough where it's noticeable in the long run.

Degradation; Personally, I think that the current degradation repair costs are a tad bit lower than what I would like to see, in comparison to how much GP you CAN make with the gear in that time (these comments aimed at degrade-to-broken gear).

For gear that degrades to dust... I don't like the system - I understand that it comes from RS3 but I think degrading to dust is a  stupid concept (that even Jagex have noted is flawed). Specifically I'm looking at Tectonic and Sirenic. 

I know that Sand wants to keep as close to RS3 as possible but this is a system that could be tweaked where the change would be noticeable for the players, and wouldn't deviate too far from the original game. When you look at BIS for each style you have CFTMW for Melee, Elite Sirenic for Range, and Elite Tectonic for mage.

Now let's look at the 2nd places; Masterwork for Melee, Sirenic for Range, Tectonic for Magic - what's the difference here? Masterwork is reduced to a broken state after all of its charges are used, whilst Range and Mage reduce to dust? I know that Masterwork is wholly harder to get, which is also why it is more expensive - but having the same tier of armour degrade differently is just weird and leaves an imbalance. Let the Sirenic and Tectonics be repaired with their original material, of course at a lower cost (say, -50% of the creation cost to repair it to full again) - and make the Masterwork also have to be repaired in similar ways, perhaps an 'Enriched Alloy Bar' that uses 10 of each regular bar to make, and is used to repair the Masterwork Pieces with (1 for shoes, gloves, 2 for helm, 3 for legs, 5 for plate) - which could then further the possible money making from Mining.


TLDR: No gambling, balance "low tier bosses" to suit newer players better, yes to death costs, replace degrade-to-dust with degrade-to-broken, make MW repair with a made-item rather than gold.

[NubonmyPC]

Also like Arca said, with the well filling. only a select group of players contribute to this on a daily base rip my money pouch 

people are hogging items which is a shame :/ 

[ryandunn]

3 hours ago, Iron Tyrone said:

To start; thank you for making a topic where you are being constructive, and open to the discussion of the topic.
TLDR at the end for people who don't want to read all this.

Firstly; Gambling.
Gambling is a disease. People on RuneScape who gamble go into real life debt to satiate their desires at the time.

Players will gamble/stake, lose all their stuff - and quit. 
Or; Players will gamble/stake, lose all their stuff - donate for bonds to sell, and repeat.

Secondly; Economy.
I think that there are a few issues which tends to decide the economy for us. New player should be progressing their gear but due to "low-tier" bosses being harder than "high-tier" bosses, that leaves it very difficult.

I'd like to quickly use GWD1 as an example.

GWD1 was previously, heavily abused for the gold-on-drop which was then nerfed in isolation, then also nerfed with the general GP nerf. This is fine, it was too profitable before for how easy it was and is now in a good place. What I find irritating about GWD1 is the difficulty - I can fully afk 2, even 3 of the GWD2 bosses with the right gear and setup, yet I can still have some difficulty with GWD1? The bosses hit hard, the minions hit hard - and that's with T90+ gear, so how is a newer player meant to deal with that? 

I think that lowered tiered bosses (KBD, Mole, GWD1 for examples) need to have balancing adjustments around them to make them either stronger, or weaker and then also balance the drops (both items, and gold). GWD1 drop rates can be lowered slightly, and make them slightly easier to do (whilst adding a Hard Modes to these bosses making the boss harder, and having higher drop rates). 

The way it is, in my opinion, it's hard to see a new player progress because the "low tier" bosses are either; 1. Not Profitable, or 2. Too Hard.

Thirdly; Death Costs & Degradation.
Death Costs; I like that you brought this up. I personally think that having no death costs - leaves no risks whatsoever to PVM. I'm all for the implementation, of course being balanced. I think if an end-game PVMer with the best gear possible dies it shouldn't be too much of a loss to dissuade them from using that gear in the future, but it should be just enough where it's noticeable in the long run.

Degradation; Personally, I think that the current degradation repair costs are a tad bit lower than what I would like to see, in comparison to how much GP you CAN make with the gear in that time (these comments aimed at degrade-to-broken gear).

For gear that degrades to dust... I don't like the system - I understand that it comes from RS3 but I think degrading to dust is a  stupid concept (that even Jagex have noted is flawed). Specifically I'm looking at Tectonic and Sirenic. 

I know that Sand wants to keep as close to RS3 as possible but this is a system that could be tweaked where the change would be noticeable for the players, and wouldn't deviate too far from the original game. When you look at BIS for each style you have CFTMW for Melee, Elite Sirenic for Range, and Elite Tectonic for mage.

Now let's look at the 2nd places; Masterwork for Melee, Sirenic for Range, Tectonic for Magic - what's the difference here? Masterwork is reduced to a broken state after all of its charges are used, whilst Range and Mage reduce to dust? I know that Masterwork is wholly harder to get, which is also why it is more expensive - but having the same tier of armour degrade differently is just weird and leaves an imbalance. Let the Sirenic and Tectonics be repaired with their original material, of course at a lower cost (say, -50% of the creation cost to repair it to full again) - and make the Masterwork also have to be repaired in similar ways, perhaps an 'Enriched Alloy Bar' that uses 10 of each regular bar to make, and is used to repair the Masterwork Pieces with (1 for shoes, gloves, 2 for helm, 3 for legs, 5 for plate) - which could then further the possible money making from Mining.


TLDR: No gambling, balance "low tier bosses" to suit newer players better, yes to death costs, replace degrade-to-dust with degrade-to-broken, make MW repair with a made-item rather than gold.

You make very good points all around. I’m very thankful for this contribution to the discussion. Very well thought out and very good input. Thank you! 

[ryandunn]

9 minutes ago, NubonmyPC said:

Also like Arca said, with the well filling. only a select group of players contribute to this on a daily base rip my money pouch 

people are hogging items which is a shame :/ 

I think if we allowed items to be donated to the well (if we had an adjusted GE price to properly evaluate item value) this could help massively. I know I’d be a lot more likely to donate my items than raw GP personally. It taking so long to sell certain items makes the gp feel so much more valuable than the well to a player that is on a high xp rate. If I could instantly get rid of an item into the well I’d be much more likely to donate to it whenever it is down. It’s a good thought to consider if it is doable. Thanks again for the input 

[Arcadiez]

2 hours ago, ryandunn said:

I think if we allowed items to be donated to the well (if we had an adjusted GE price to properly evaluate item value) this could help massively. I know I’d be a lot more likely to donate my items than raw GP personally. It taking so long to sell certain items makes the gp feel so much more valuable than the well to a player that is on a high xp rate. If I could instantly get rid of an item into the well I’d be much more likely to donate to it whenever it is down. It’s a good thought to consider if it is doable. Thanks again for the input 

Have to bare in mind that only certain selected items should be able to be put in well to avoid any possible abuse(eg able to buy a cheap item/hoard a certain item which has a higher value in well).

 

I brought forward the idea a long time that you can randomly obtain the golden chinchompa from the well. There could be many more interesting items/pets etc that could be a possible drop. Encourage more items/money being thrown down the goblin hole.

[ryandunn]

12 minutes ago, Arcadiez said:

Have to bare in mind that only certain selected items should be able to be out in well to avoid any possible abuse(eg able to buy a cheap item/hoard a certain item which has a higher value in well).

 

I brought forward the idea a long time that you can randomly obtain the golden chinchompa from the well. There could be many more interesting items/pets etc that could be a possible drop. Encourage more items/money being thrown down the goblin hole.

Yes 100% to it only being certain items to avoid any abuse. Also having a reward possible from the well would be a cool idea to work with. Great idea 

[Fulltimewife]

13 hours ago, Arcadiez said:

I see new players asking to buy gear all the time. Eg gw1 sets. But not many people are selling.

With regards to GWD1 armour, the reason nobody sells is because nobody farms for the purpose of selling.

 

Armadyl - Farmed for components, you need dozens of sets to combat the fucking meme that precise farming is, people don't want to sell their sets because they're using it for components.
Bandos - People just alt-scapes for Masterwork or buy Masterwork for the pitiful price that it is currently (250m)
Subjugation - Same as Armadyl & Bandos, people don't know how to farm K'ril effectively, so people don't, they die to the overhead slam, cite shit game, then just do Vorago or buy tectonic energy, nobody really farms K'ril for the profit.
Saradomin - Doesn't drop armour, Chaotics are better than Armadyl Crossbow & can be obtained in a tenth of the time, no real reason to be here so people don't do it. 

Anyone that can farm GWD1 effectively, doesn't as it's just not overly worth it to do so for the sake of profit, there's better money makers for less effort

[ryandunn]

13 minutes ago, Fulltimewife said:

With regards to GWD1 armour, the reason nobody sells is because nobody farms for the purpose of selling.

 

Armadyl - Farmed for components, you need dozens of sets to combat the fucking meme that precise farming is, people don't want to sell their sets because they're using it for components.
Bandos - People just alt-scapes for Masterwork or buy Masterwork for the pitiful price that it is currently (250m)
Subjugation - Same as Armadyl & Bandos, people don't know how to farm K'ril effectively, so people don't, they die to the overhead slam, cite shit game, then just do Vorago or buy tectonic energy, nobody really farms K'ril for the profit.
Saradomin - Doesn't drop armour, Chaotics are better than Armadyl Crossbow & can be obtained in a tenth of the time, no real reason to be here so people don't do it. 

Anyone that can farm GWD1 effectively, doesn't as it's just not overly worth it to do so for the sake of profit, there's better money makers for less effort

i completely agree with that, but it needs to be made easier for those lower level players it is intended for. like stated above, its a joke that you can afk nearly all gwd2 but gwd1 is harder in most cases

[Nhs]

Lot's of amazing discussions happening here, and I'm really glad the community is coming together instead of the usual "fix eco" comments in the friends chat and my PMs/Discord and the other staffs PM/Discord as well. It's incredible to see such a dedicated player base that want to better the server and see it flourish. 

Just wanted to add my two cents to the gambling subject, I'll add to the other subjects when I have time!

Gambling

I strongly disagree with the idea of gambling PERSONALLY. I've seen it ruin too many good things, including people (Like myself). The last thing I want to see is a young player getting introduced to the idea of it, and watching them go down the rabbit hole.

Now, gambling can greatly clean up the economy for sure. Lottery with a tax system in place, lots of ideas will work, especially if done right. However, I feel if players could gamble with each other it would just result in one mega rich player/clan controlling everything. 

A server gambling NPC could work with odds against the player (like a 60% player loss rate kinda deal)

But gambling just has too many long lasting, and real life cons to consider it being in game. 

 

 

[ryandunn]

34 minutes ago, Nhs said:

Lot's of amazing discussions happening here, and I'm really glad the community is coming together instead of the usual "fix eco" comments in the friends chat and my PMs/Discord and the other staffs PM/Discord as well. It's incredible to see such a dedicated player base that want to better the server and see it flourish. 

Just wanted to add my two cents to the gambling subject, I'll add to the other subjects when I have time!

Gambling

I strongly disagree with the idea of gambling PERSONALLY. I've seen it ruin too many good things, including people (Like myself). The last thing I want to see is a young player getting introduced to the idea of it, and watching them go down the rabbit hole.

Now, gambling can greatly clean up the economy for sure. Lottery with a tax system in place, lots of ideas will work, especially if done right. However, I feel if players could gamble with each other it would just result in one mega rich player/clan controlling everything. 

A server gambling NPC could work with odds against the player (like a 60% player loss rate kinda deal)

But gambling just has too many long lasting, and real life cons to consider it being in game. 

 

 

I feel like my opinion on gambling is very skewed because of my history with it stemming back from the original gambling in the main RuneScape game going so well, along with my gambling in real life always going well. I understand how it going bad can lead to people quitting or worse taking that addiction to real life and causing more serious issues than a game. That being said a daily lottery with a max cap of gp allowed to be entered per day being set, with the more added equaling a higher chance to win capped at that amount seems like an okay idea. Also as far as an automated gambler with a 60% server win rate I’m all for, perhaps also adding restrictions about how much and how often you can use it. I think the best thing for the games economy though would be for whatever we do to allow the use of items to go towards those changes. A quick way to offload unneeded items that have a chance to benefit the player. If we don’t have stacks of items in our banks it could help non end game items have a good way to leave the game, perhaps driving those items price up, and making that lower tier content a viable option once again for someone looking to just “afk” a boss, or the newer players with lesser gear have an opportunity to make some Better money through the pvm that their gear allows them to do. Again, great to see this being talked about. Thank you for the input. 

[Asgardian]

Just to chime in, i think that skilling items, atleast the higher tier ones, shouldn't be available on the GE. Be that high level herbs, logs, gems - whatever! This would add an incentive to skill, and sell the items you don't need on the GE, making a market for earning some cash when skilling. #1 example is mining, currently you can only buy up to runite ore on the ge, however you can buy almost every single herb and secondary ingredient you'll ever need to use in herblore, and way too cheap in my opinion. 

Maybe keep the shop with a daily stock with some herbs and ingredients with a small stock of like 10-50 depending on type/level of herb/ingredient, so there would still be a small option for upkeeping pots and so on.

And possibly have a look on what other options there are for changing items currently readily available in GE, that might have a market - this could see an increase in items being traded between players, and new players having ways to earn some starter cash. 

 

 

[Asgardian]

And to add on to the on-going discussion, i am also totally in for adding some kind of death cost, maybe like 5-10% of the items you have equipped and in your inventory. This would of course have to be monitored if implemented, too see if further buffs/nerfs should be added down the line. Just forgot to put it in my text above!

[ryandunn]

4 hours ago, asgardian said:

And to add on to the on-going discussion, i am also totally in for adding some kind of death cost, maybe like 5-10% of the items you have equipped and in your inventory. This would of course have to be monitored if implemented, too see if further buffs/nerfs should be added down the line. Just forgot to put it in my text above!

Amazing feedback. I agree with your point about the items available on the GE! As a non iron I didn’t even pick up most of those kinds of drops because they’re so cheap to just buy whenever you  need them. Great idea